#321 – CLOUT With Steve Smith

Thomas Green here with ethical marketing service on the episode. Today, we have Steve Smith. Steve welcome Thomas, thanks for having me.

I’m looking forward to it. It is very much my pleasure would you like to take a moment and tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do. Sure. Um I have an executive coaching company. Um uh I’ve been doing it now since 2008. And we principally work with either people at higher levels in larger companies or small business owners. And it’s all with the idea of helping them develop into a better version of themselves so they can be more successful at the line of work that they’ve chosen. Um, prior to that my entire career was in consumer products manufacturing. And there is where I learned most of what I’m able to teach my clients today. So it’s turned out to be a very, a very utopian existence for me, so to speak. Because for the first time in my plus 40 years of being in business, I feel like what I’m really good at, I’m actually spending all of my day doing. Yeah, that’s, um, that makes work a little bit easier when you get to do that. Right. It does as opposed to hating what you’re doing each day.

Certainly, uh, preferable. But, um, I believe if I’m not, if I’m not mistaken, we are going to talk about the topic of what you call clout today. And, uh, it’s a very interesting subject. I’ve not, uh, discussed it on the podcast before. So, would you like to open with, uh, what is clout? Yes. Um, one of the things and, and I guess one of the best byproduct’s of what I do professionally is that I’m exposed to what other people aspire to become and what they’re lacking or what they feel like they’re being held back from in, in, in their ability to get there. And frequently when I’m talking to people in more of executive level roles where there’s a certain presence that needs to be in order to be effective in the job that they have. Because as you get to higher levels in an organization, you’re actually responsible for physically doing less. You know, you don’t have your hands on the development of the product or the application of the service at the lower levels. A lot of what you do is guidance and critical thinking and decision making and, and delegation and all the things that other people rely on because they look at you as the leader.

So many people today have risen up to those higher ranks and along the way, they’ve never really feel like they’ve been able to gain that control, that influences and impacts what other people do and what I’ve termed it is a lack of clout. They, the way they show up, the way they interact, the way they carry themselves is not good enough for other people to say, you know, that person is really good at what they do. I really like how they handle themselves. I like where they’re going, I’m willing to follow them. I might not always like what they tell me or, or the opinion that they have, but I believe that they have what I need to be successful. That’s clout and it’s not something you talk about. It’s something that just emulates from you and people can sense it and they can pick it up and it’s a combination of all the things you do every day that other people sitting back, you know, in other offices, down the hallway around the room, they might never say anything but they’re looking at you and saying, what’s he going to do that?

I would be willing to emulate. And when you understand the makeup of that and you realize how to incorporate that into how you show up and how you perform, you’ve achieved clout. It’s a very interesting topic and um I like the way that you described it as like a type of presence that someone has. I’m a sort of, um, I have the opinion that if you and I were to, let’s say, look at some examples, we’d be able to tell who has clout and who doesn’t in our, in our minds. But I, in terms of how to describe it, I find that actually quite, um I find that the challenge. So, um if someone were to attempt to figure out whether they had clout, um what would they do? Uh The first thing that I would suggest people do and this is the hard part but you have to get over this. If you’re really going to make an effort at walking down this path, find a few people in your inner circle. We all have an inner circle. It’s, it’s people, whether they’re family members or personal friends or work colleagues that we’ve allowed to get close to us.

They’re, they’re in that layer where we will confide and talk to them and reveal things about ourselves that we’re not necessarily gonna tell people that live, you know, that, that you, you know, a church, you see once a week and they’re nice people, but you don’t really know them that well. So find a few of those people that, you know, are interested enough in your well being that they would be willing to be candid with you if you asked them a few very pointed questions and once you sit down with them and just say, look, Bob, when you look at everything that I do, how I show up how I interact with other people. How would you describe that? What do you think my role and, and my value is as somebody else would see it, try to get outside of your own head. One of the problems that we all have as humans is we have two views of the world. We have the view from in here that we see and it goes through filters and perspectives and biases and all the things that we grow up with and then there’s the other view of what people have of us that they see from outside looking in.

That’s the view you wanna be connected with because as people see you throughout the day, the week, the month or whatever the frequency is of contact, that perspective of who you are and what you’re capable of. And are you valuable enough that I should get close to you? I should learn from you. I should follow you. I should work closely with you. That’s the perspective you wanna be able to tap into. So the only way to do that is to find a few people who are willing to be brutally honest. And when I’ve done this in the past, I’ve always said, look, I’m looking for unfiltered candor. Don’t tell me what you think I wanna hear. Tell me exactly what you see. That’s what’s most important to me. And when you find people that are willing to do that in a, in a professional manner, give you just observations, that kind of stuff is what you can take away and say, ok, if that’s where I know I need to be. I’m on the right track most of the time. It’s not, most of the time. There are things that you will find out about yourself that you need to course correct. If it’s really uncomfortable for other people around you, you need to find a way to eliminate it.

If it’s a tweaking mechanism where maybe you’re, you’re on the right track, but you’re not just doing it the best that you could. You’re not getting the reaction from others that you really want. I’ll give you a great example where this pops up a lot. You have people that rise up into organizations where now they’re invited into the board room to have strategic meetings with other members of a particular company or organization. And month after month after month of showing up, they find themselves feeling not really but feeling somewhat invisible. People don’t acknowledge them. People don’t listen to them. People don’t allow them to participate. They’re kind of like wallpaper and I get clients all the time coming to me saying, how do I change that? How do I become visible? How do I become impactful to where other people recognize that what I contribute has value the huge problem today in society at multiple levels. And it’s only because until you get yourself out of that mindset and start really realizing where your true value is and you have the invert in uh inner confidence to display it and to offer it up, you’ll continue to feel like wallpaper.

So that’s what I help. I tell people all the time, find a few people that will be brutally honest with you, ask them the question and sit back and listen. I think that’s a really worthwhile exercise. One of the things that I have wondered about and it’s uh it’s something that I’d like to get your opinion on, which is, are the majority of people ready for honest feedback or cos I think the telling people what they want to hear is that serves a purpose, meaning that a lot of people can’t handle the truth about themselves in some instances. Um, what are your thoughts on that topic? Uh, I would agree with you. I think the vast majority of people will tell you that they want to know, but they want to know on their terms. They don’t want to be insulted. They don’t wanna be demeaned. They don’t wanna feel broken more than they might be feeling currently when they come to you. So when people come to me and ask me things like that, I always couch it in a measure of really trying to check them to make sure that they’re mentally ready for that discussion.

So typically, what I will say is I’m glad you asked. I have a few observations that I think you might benefit from. Are you open to hearing them? Now? I haven’t told them your behavior sucks or your interpersonal style is offensive. I haven’t just hit him right in the forehead right off the bat. Their observations and observations aren’t always accurate. It’s just what I see of you and it could be the time and the place and whatever you did before you showed up all those things that should be kind of considered. But observations are things that people can work with. So if I’m asking somebody else, I’m saying, look, I don’t want to put you in a position where you’re feeling uncomfortable, but I value you as a friend and how you work and I would like your observations on what you think I could change. That would make me more effective. That word change is a big one because it doesn’t denote good or bad. It’s just different and most of the time, that’s what people need to do.

They just need to do things differently. I think that’s, um, a very clever way to go about it. And, um, again, uh mature from both perspectives on, on the one hand, you’re asking for honest feedback. On the other hand, you’re not just blatantly insulting someone. So I think that’s quite good advice. Um The, the way I imagine that person being, if they’re, as you said, invisible is that there, there’s a body language problem in the sense that they’re, they might be, I think confident they might be unconfident in the way that they sort of present themselves. And they’re also not uh sure about the way they wanna communicate their ideas, so they might self doubt a little bit as well. So let’s say that person is seeking advice or let’s say that you’ve highlighted that that’s an issue. What’s next for them? What would you do or what would you help them with? Ok. So I can, I can basically play off of a live example that I’m working with right now. I have a gentleman in a very heavy technology company.

Uh They build a lot of items for companies that, you know, are done under nd A provisions, nobody can know about it, you know. So he’s very, very technically astute in his engineering work. But when he gets into project reviews, meaning people from all different apartments assemble, they take a look at one central project they’re working on for a client. And everybody gets an opportunity to, to, to talk about how that project is moving forward. So there’s a lot of interaction and many times it’s not coordinate interaction, it’s just people throwing things out and saying, yeah, that works or no, I’ve got a question about that. And so you have a lot of this kind of unstructured dialogue going on from a group of people around the table for someone has a lack of confidence in what they say or what they contribute. That’s an absolute minefield. Nobody will ever show up and be willing to say something. If they feel that somebody else around the table is gonna stick a knife in what they have to say. So these people will basically sit back, they’ll listen, they’ll learn a lot.

They might even see a problem that nobody else has talked about. That could deep six the whole project and they won’t say anything in public because they have a fear of how it’s going to be responded to. They don’t have enough inner confidence in the things that they see or the opinions they convey to withstand what they think might happen. So the end result is they just stay mute. They don’t say anything, they wait until the meeting is over and they might go to somebody’s office and say, hey, you know, I saw this, I just kind of wanted somebody to know even though the best time to have said it was during the meeting, but that’s the worst time for them. So when I run into someone like that, what I try to get them to realize is at that moment at that psychological decision where you’ve decided not to speak up. What are you feeling? What’s happening in your head that’s making you decide this is more of a, of a, of a fierce situation for you than just raising your hand.

You know, my favorite tactic is I don’t just try to steal a microphone and just blurt out whatever’s going on in a meeting. I will look at whoever is running the meeting, whoever is at the front and I just basically put up one finger and when people see that, they know I’m getting ready to make a statement. And so they’re all Well, Smith, what do you want? Fine. The door is open, but I’m not gonna compete with anybody else who’s yelling and screaming and out of control. I just basically let them know I’ve got something to say. It’s your choice as to whether you wanna give me the microphone or not, but I’m ready. So that’s what I teach people who have a fear of jumping in and just getting caught up in the morass of discussion, let people know you have something to say, clear the decks so that you can step in and say what you have to say. So it’s small things like that, that help build confidence to, to speak up and let your, your thoughts and opinions be known. I think it’s a, it’s a good way of, um, shall we say overcoming that initial fear? What about those, uh, instances where they do feel a little bit like their idea is attacked or not taken seriously any thoughts there?

Yes. Um, the other way is, is how you serve it up many times when people will, will, will respond or open up about something that they see going on in front of them. Many times people start off their, their, their remarks with some kind of judgment factor. They immediately say something like, uh, you know, I don’t know if that’s right and then they try to get in whatever comment they’ve got going or I don’t want to offend anybody with what I’m about to say. Well, guess what, everybody around the table is waiting to be offended at that moment. So what I try to get people to do is when you make your comment, make it judgment neutral based on what everybody is talking about and what I see on the screen here’s what I’m thinking. Now. You haven’t offended anybody or stuck a dagger in anybody’s opinion. But guess what? There’s at least one other person around that table who’s thinking the exact same thing and they don’t have the courage to say it. Yeah. So when you start opening up like that or another good tactic is I’m curious about what you guys have talked about during this phase.

It’s kind of unclear to me and this is kind of what I think is going on. Can anybody help clear that up for me? Little bit of a vulnerable approach, but you would be amazed at how powerful that comes off because there are other people around the table and yet nobody wants to say anything. So it’s really just a matter of having a comfortable entry into the conversation that will get you the notice you’re looking for by simply learning how to enter into a conversation in, in a way that that’s not defamatory or accusatory, but just very uh very objective, even if it means asking questions for clarity. What you do is you gain the trust of people around the table because now they understand gee what he’s asking for is what I’m thinking as well. And if you do that a few times as you continue to meet with these folks the word gets out that, you know what, he’s got something and to contribute, we should listen to him. And that’s really the start of people coming out of their, their shell, so to speak and getting more confidence to participate.

And it’s that participation that everybody else recognize has, has value to them. Yeah, I like that position because I feel like um it’s another, it’s sort of similar to what you said about judgment. So uh if you put forth your idea and you say this is, this is what I think and someone comes back and then let’s say it’s a justifiable rebuttal or it’s um you know, unjustifiable, you’re sort of invested in that idea. Whereas your examples you gave, you’re sort of opening it up for conversation and you’re asking for other people’s input. So you’re not necessarily saying this is what I’m advocating for is just a open dialogue, right? And people appreciate that. I don’t, I’m, I, I don’t know other folks that you have talked to on your program. But one of the things that I’ve learned, and this is one of these things that I wish I had learned way way earlier in my former career. People love talking about themselves. And if you can be the catalyst to opening people up and giving them a platform to talk about what’s most important to them or what’s most interesting to them, they’ll tell you anything.

And if you do that enough you can walk away from a conversation and the person leaving, you might think you’re the smartest person they’ve talked to all month and you haven’t really said anything. You just reminds me of, um, how to win friends and influence people. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. None of what I do is proprietary, brand new discovery. I, you know, I guess the thing that has allowed me to do what I do today with the hundreds and hundreds of companies I’ve worked with is I’ve learned and borrowed techniques from other people who are far greater and far more successful than I am. But these are evergreen techniques. They, these are not things that, that come and go through the eighties and nineties. They’re all part of the human wiring process and they work now, they’re gonna work 10 years from now. Well, uh I think you’ve given a good example or um shall we say description of, of what clout might look like? Um The question is around what it doesn’t look like cos I think there’s some misconceptions about it that maybe you’d be able to share.

And one of those from my perception is um fake it till you make it type attitude where you’re more um bombastic or a bit aggressive in your attitude. Have you got any thoughts a around what it isn’t? Oh, yes. Um And, and I say this because when I started my coaching business, I was actually part of a very small start up franchise and the franchise had been assembled with a lot of well heeled people from other major organizations like Tony Robbins and Tony Robbins has been successful beyond belief. He’s helped thousands and thousands of people. But any time you have massive organizations like that and people just climbing over each other to get involved, you’re going to get a certain percentage of people who do what I call game the system. They’re trying to find that shortcut to the top slogans like you just mentioned, fake it till you make. It is a very common slogan in those kinds of environments because everybody’s trying to psych themselves into success.

OK? To me that, that’s got a very, very, very high probability of failure. And along with that failure comes a, a certain negative view of life that is hard to get rid of later on because you almost feel like you’ve been mentally cheated, you know, into thinking that way and assuming that all you had to do is spout those axioms on a regular basis. And all of a sudden one day you’d be wealthy and, and everything would be easy. And so when I tell people what clout isn’t, clout isn’t ego driven. OK? People with big egos that are aggressive that wanna control other people around them, they tend to wear everything on their sleeves, on their coats, on their hats, whatever. I mean, they’re, they’re gonna tell you whether you ask them or not because they know how good they are and they want everybody else to know and they wanted to know by how they, they bring it about Cloud is none of that. People with real clout, don’t ever mention that kind of stuff. In fact, most of the time they show up in somewhat of a humble type manner, they’re very approachable.

They’re very welcoming, they’re very interested in other people. And what can I do to help you reach your goal? Maybe it’s nothing but just the fact that you’ve told people that you’ve asked, that gives people a sense of belonging, a sense of care, somebody else actually cares about what’s important to me. So it’s the, the manner in which you show up in the dialogue that you, you participate in, that conveys who you are as a professional people that don’t aspire to that. The ego driven ones, the ones that are very aggressive and wanna control everything around them that’s not clout and that kind of thing wears out after a while. You’re either going to have the, you know, the, the stuff that actually backs up why you’re bombastic like that or you, you flame out and when you flame out, it’s very difficult to come back unless you go someplace else in a new environment with new people and start all over again with the same bad habits. Are there any other misconceptions other than the ones we’ve discussed?

Um I think the other one is that sometimes people, and again, this, this is all how people view the world, everybody has their sense of right and wrong and, and what’s real and what’s honest and what’s integrity. But I think that depending on how you as an individual show up and meet somebody like this, sometimes there’s a feeling that these people are putting on airs because they’re trying to manipulate others. So there is, there can be a perception of manipulation if you, if you don’t, if you focus too much on yourself and not on the people around you, when you’re focused on people around you, it’s very hard to sell people on the fact that you’re manipulating if you’re honestly doing things that help them win in their game of life, but if what you’re doing seems like it’s coming back on you for immediate return. That can be a tough thing to, to explain your way out of. So I would say manipulation and the ego factor are the two things that sometimes people can associate with someone that has real clout.

Thank you for that clarification. Um You did say in one of your previous answers around uh helping people with goal achievement. Have you got any thoughts on the topic of goals and how it relates to clout? Yes. Um People, people with real clout have a real clear sense of purpose and I talk about this a lot. I’ve, I’ve written some articles on it. And I talk with clients about it on occasionally, especially people that are in the small business arena because small business is largely entrepreneurial in nature. It’s all about what you bring to the party, how long you’re willing to work, what you’re willing to risk in order to get what you want. That’s the very definition of people who wanna start something up and, and build it up to where it’s, it’s a successful venture. And so what I tell people a lot of times is if you’re, if you have clout, if you’re trying to possess that, it’s because there’s something in your life of purpose that you are continually drawn to. It’s what I call having a colon, almost like internal gps, regardless of where you are and who you’re talking to.

It always manages to point you in the same direction, which is different than a lot of people’s association with passion. You know, I hear people all the time follow your passion do what’s passionate. I don’t subscribe to that. Not because passion is not important, but passion is basically emotional fuel. All right. I have a passion for making my own beer, but I would never wanna run a pub. I have passion for riding my motorcycle, but I would never wanna be a motorcycle manufacturer. Passions are fleeting. They can change over time and it’s important to have passion about what you’re engaged in. But the passion isn’t the driver, it’s not the it’s not the end destination. It’s the thing that gets you to that point. So people with real cloud, they already have a purpose. They know where they’re going in their life’s path. They know what the end game is. That’s the kind of thing that other people will feel. You might never see it because they might, they, they don’t talk about it. You know, when it comes to goals, we have a tendency to want to reassess our goals at the beginning of every year.

Kind of like what a lot of people do with New Year’s resolutions. I stopped doing that over 10 years ago because I realized that the average person completely loses all desire for whatever they’ve proclaimed on New Year’s Eve by about the middle of February. So resolutions are more ceremonious than they are of conviction. And if you’re really looking at how to incorporate goals, you’ve got to decide what’s my life path first, what am I here to do? What value do I have to extend to others that can be bolted on to that direction and the longer you stay with it, the less goals become cyclical and the more it just becomes kind of a running theme of what you’re here to do. Yeah. I much prefer the, um, the approach of aspiring for something regardless of the time of year then just, oh, by the way, it’s, uh, it’s New Year’s. Therefore, I have to have, uh, a goal in mind. Um But the, uh I really like the way that you’ve, you call, you phrase it as the calling, your calling in your life.

Have you got any thoughts around? If people are struggling with the concept of what their calling is, how they might go about finding that? I, I think I, I’m a big proponent of, of the, the preto principle which, what we commonly refer to as the 8020 rule. And I believe most of society I’ll be in that 80% range has real significant problems with life’s purpose. They might and, and here’s another interesting statistic and this is not recent. This has been going on for decades. Over 85% of all people that graduate from higher education don’t ultimately pursue a career that has anything to do with their education. So right off the bat, we’ve learned early on that. It’s ok to leave behind something you spent a lot of time and money acquiring to go after something else that covers an immediate need. And so I think what happens is a, along the way people lose touch with what it was. They really wanted early on because other things got in the way that were more pressing.

So I do believe lots of people have trouble with that. Um, they get into certain careers all of a sudden 20 years has passed and they’re out, they’re, they’re out of love with it now. It’s just, it’s a way to make a paycheck and they’re desperately looking to get out, but they can’t figure out how to do that to somebody that I was just chatting with that really had that issue. And it, uh, you know, it depends on a lot of things. What, how much people depend on you and your family structure. Are you the, the main breadwinner, so to speak. How old are you? How much runway do you have in front of you? Um You know, back when I was a kid, anybody ahead of me that was broaching, 60 years old. I mean, that was the end of life, you know, and a lot of stuff has happened between then and now and I routinely run into people who are running businesses actively and they’re in their early seventies. So a lot has changed, but a lot also means what is your, what’s your desire to keep going? You know, some people will work and you, you read about the famous people all the time in their eighties and, and until they’re still cognitively sound, they’re still doing what they love.

You know, it’s not about the money or the fame anymore. They just love doing it and it’s their way of staying current and relevant and surviving for as long as they can. Um But most people don’t think that way. Most people think compartment, you know, this is my life. Now, I have to do this to satisfy this I’ll worry about tomorrow later, tomorrow. Never really shows up all of a sudden one day they’re at retirement and they haven’t really prepared themselves for what that next phase looks like. So early on when I try to get people to realize is what do you really want? Because it’s the want factor that drives people’s desire to change, not what you need. We all endeavor to try to cover our needs, but, but needs are not the emotional fuel that will actually make you decide to change and go off in a different direction. So until you can clarify what that looks like and then step back and say, OK, how would I transform myself from where I am now to what I want to be that could take a year or two years. You have, if you’re, if you’re journey focused, you’ve got to be willing to spend that time doing it when people come to me and say, um can you help me with XYZ?

I have 60 days to do it. I basically say, if your business is depending on that, let me show you how to file bankruptcy because nothing of that significant changes in 60 days, you took 20 years to get to this point, you’re not gonna change it in 60 days. So I think for, for a lot of people, it’s, it’s the realization of what’s most important to them. And it’s the understanding of what it will take from an effort at a time standpoint to ellipse over into doing what they like. A lot of people do. A lot of people do, but a lot of people get stuck and they spend the rest of their life in that stuck mode because they don’t know how to take that first step. I love that topic and, um, I think you describe it really well, so I appreciate you sharing it. Um, you have used a couple of examples where you’ve helped people with coaching. But have you got any that, um you’re particularly proud of that? You would wanna share as examples? Um Yes. Um I had a gentleman that was working for a large educational institute in my area about an hour away from my office and he called me one day and he says, you know, I really need your help.

I, my job is on the line. I’m really frustrated. I, I’m, I’m just not able to do well and I, and I think, you know, I think things are gonna, gonna end and I thought, ok, before I take this guy on, maybe I should drive out and meet him and talk with him and really find out how much of this is real and how much, you know, the fear can cause people to, to not see things as clearly as they are. So I drove out to his institute as I was getting driving into the parking lot, he’s standing in the middle of the parking lot waiting for me. So, right then and there I thought, ok, this is serious. Normally people wait for me to go into the office before, you know, greeting and he’s standing in the parking lot. So we walk into his office and he kind of lays it all out and I, I, you know, we figure out what the issues are, what he’s doing to create them and what changes he needs to make. And over about a nine month period, the whole idea, the whole idea was to get him at a stable point where he wasn’t fearing that he wasn’t doing well enough to keep his job nine months into that.

Not only did he overcome that, but he was offered a vice president’s promotion by the, by the head of the university. Now that wasn’t part of the, that wasn’t part of the plan, didn’t see that coming. But what it taught me was sometimes people’s fear about their immediate circumstances can get so big that it actually clouds out other perspectives around them that might not be that, that immediate or that, that bad. And so I really felt good. I felt good that the guy kept his job, but I also felt that what he really knew how to do, which was completely being covered over. Now, it was seen by other people in the university that said, yes, that’s what we need to be able to do this and that and so they offered it to him and he stepped up. So that was a great one. I love that one. Yeah, it’s a great story. Do you, do you think, uh, just your opinion about, um, was it as bad as he was perceiving it to be? Um, no, uh, there were bad spots, no question. But what caused him to get that head full of, oh, my God, the world’s coming to an end is he wasn’t addressing the issue with the source.

He was allowing too many intermediaries to take what they knew what was right, what was fabricated and kind of work it up and then pass it along. It’s the old, the old telephone game he was playing that because he was, he was going to what was immediate and what was what was available as opposed to taking the steps to go address the issue with what the source was. And once he got to the point where he was having meetings with the Provost and the other people and showing them what he was trying to accomplish it changed how they were seeing things, which changed what they were saying to the chain of command that he was ultimately responding to. So the whole idea was stop listening to all this stuff in the middle, go to the source and check it, find out if that’s actually how they feel or if there’s just a fact that they don’t see everything you see and that’s a good time to have that conversation. Well, it sounds like a, a very, shall we say beneficial example if you would like, uh, if, if there are other people who want to wait in the parking lot for you, um, where do they find you?

How do they get in touch? The best thing that I suggest for people all the time is go visit my website, which is Growth Source coaching.com. Um, my bio and my programs and my examples and my tips. I throw a lot of tips out there. I’ll give everybody the playbook right up front to see what they can do with it on their own. But I really want people to get to know what I’m all about before they either fill out the little box that they want me to call. Some people just email me directly. It doesn’t matter but get to know me first because that will really tell me whether you’re ready for this conversation or not. I’m going back to the beginning of the call. You know, if you wanna have that conversation and you wanna really get insight about where you are and what’s left for you to do, learn about me first and then if you’re still inspired, get a hold of me and I’ll be glad to set up a phone call or resume or whatever, that doesn’t cost anything. I’m more interested in getting people to where they really feel energized that they can do it that they are on the right track that they are pursuing the right end game.

And if they feel like that I can show them exactly what they need to course correct to get there. And, uh, what was that website again? Sorry. Growth source coaching.com. Ok. Thank you for that. And, uh, do you have any closing thoughts for us today? Yeah. Um, and I’m going to, I, I’m, I’m going to throw out a term that I’ve, I’ve seen recently from a gentleman who is, is not living with us anymore, but he had a tremendous, tremendous impact on, on business and professionalism in general. His name is Jim Ro Rohm. He’s got tons of video out on youtube and he had one philosophy that I thought if everybody thought this way, we would have more people feeling satisfied about the journey that they took to reach their own level of success. And here’s what he says, he says, spend more time working on yourself than you spend working on your job. Doesn’t mean you can’t be fully dedicated to your job’s work, but spend more time on yourself because it’s the improvement in yourself that allows you to be better at your job, not the other way around.

So that’s what I would tell everybody think first about what you can do to show up and be your absolute best self. And if you’re always oriented towards that, you will never be disappointed with the outcome. Well, I can’t help it because one of my favorite gym quotes is, uh, in order to do better, you need to be better. So I, I’m sure we could exchange gym Roan quotes back and forth. But uh it’s a good, good point to end on. Good, good Steve. Thank you very much for being a great guest today. Well, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation and I just appreciate the fact that you gave me a platform to, to let everybody know about it. It’s been great. Thank you very much.