Thomas Green here with ethical marketing service on the episode today. We have Catherine Llewellyn. Catherine, welcome. Thank you so much, Thomas. It is very much my pleasure. Would you like to take a moment and tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do? Sure. So I um I have a podcast. It’s called truth and transcendence. And I’ve been doing that for 2.5 years and that’s a place where people come on and talk about finding their truth and experiencing transformative effects as a result of doing that. So that’s a big part of what I’m doing. I’m also the founder of Being Space, which I’ve recently started actually. And through that I’m offering uh workshops which are all about personal growth of one sort or another um energy healing uh treatments and also mentoring coming from the Humanistic Psychology basis.
So that’s all the kind of the stuff I’m doing now, apart from wandering around the hills in Wales and um rescuing cats, I’ve recently rescued a cat, um which I’m now rehabilitating and it’s amazing how that takes more energy than most client projects I’ve ever had. So life is, is never quite as one foresees it. Well, thank you for the introduction. Um And I find what immediately occurred to me was that when you’re interviewing people as a host, uh Often it’s the case that you actually don’t get to hear about the story of the host, you get to hear about many stories, but not necessarily of the person who’s doing the interviewing. So, um would you like to in relation to your podcast? What, what you talk to people about maybe finding your true calling, for example. Um Would you like to share what that is for you? Oh, yeah. OK. Um So um m my overall purpose in what I’m doing is as good as sound a bit pompous is to, to contribute to the evolution of mankind through the elevation of consciousness.
So that’s my overall calling. And um I’m doing that through helping individuals, whether one, whether one on one or in group settings to elevate their own consciousness in their own lives and experience transformation in their lives. So that’s my calling and that has been my calling for a very long time. I haven’t always been quite as um overt or open about that. Sometimes I haven’t told people that’s what my purpose is until we’ve been working together for 18 months or something. By which time they say, yeah, I could have worked that out. Catherine. I think I knew that, you know. Um But now that’s, that’s what I say upfront to people. OK? And um I, I struggle, I’m quite a, a literal person. So in terms of what that would look like if you were trying to help someone with doing that is that um could you tell me a bit more? I’m not sure. I, I quite follow in terms of the, the literal interpretation of what that would be.
So if someone comes on one of these workshops, they spend two days with me and a small number of other people, it’s a maximum of eight participants in the group people talk about what, what comes up for them when they start engaging at this sort of level, which is very often ego stuff as well as, um, a sense of wonder and appreciation. You know, all the things that come up when we try to take ourselves to another level or connect more with our higher self. All the reasons why we’ve not done that before, come up and smack us in the face. Um So in my workshops, people talk about those things, we discuss them. Um We don’t try and squash them or get rid of them or judge them. We go, oh, that’s interesting. Right. Let’s talk about that. You know, where’s that coming from? How is it affecting you? And usually on the other side of that, there’s a, a piece of brilliance or insight that’s available for that person. So that’s one example, the Pella workshop, another example would be someone comes to me for 1 to 1 mentoring and the first conversation, of course, I will say.
So why have you wanted to talk to me? And sometimes they’ve got a clear idea about that and sometimes they haven’t uh quite often. They’ve just heard me on a podcast or a friend who’s worked with me has told them about me. And they’ve just got this feeling that uh there’s something more for them in their life, but they’re not necessarily sure what it is, but it’s just around the corner and they, they, they know they could do with some assistance trying to find it and connect with it and, and once we start, we then start talking about, um, so what is it in your life which feels really right for you at the moment? And what is it that doesn’t? And what is your sense of what you like more of what, what are the, what is it that you are um yearning for? What, what, where are you and, and what, what do you wish for kind of a thing? And then I put together like a structured program for that person based on what we’ve discussed, which about where they are and where they want to go.
But also based on what they’ve told me about their existing capabilities and faculties and capacities and qualities so that we use those because they’ve got those already as, as key resources for the work. And once we get into the work, it’s 1 to 1 sessions with me and then a lot of kind of research and inquiry and practice and um meditation and all sorts of other things in between the sessions. So quite often they draw in people they’re close to, into the process, you know, by saying, look, I’m doing this, you, my relationship with you is terribly important to me. Um I would love to talk to you about some aspect of what I’m doing or I can, I please, can we please experiment with some of what I’m exploring, you know, is that all right with you? Or will you give me some feedback or, you know, and of course, if they’re running a business, which often they are those conversations they’re having with their, with their board, let’s say, you know, where they’re saying, or they may not talk to them about it, they may keep it completely private, at least to begin with.
So that’s a, that’s kind of vague. I, in a way, but what we’re doing there in that 1 to 1 work is we’re focusing on what is it that that person’s spirit really wants? And how can we help that person to rise up to meet that calling? You know, how can they clarify what that calling is and how can they rise up to meet it? Because we all, in my opinion, we all have many levels to us and some of those levels we’re not very proud of and some of those levels, if we’re honest, we are proud of. So it’s about using the aspects of ourselves that we are proud of already, including the ones that are absolutely magnificent that we aren’t even aware of to help us bring everything along to the place where we want to be. Um So those are just two examples of, of different ways I work with people. Well, thank you for that. Um You mentioned in part of your answer about how the ego might come into play.
Um What’s an example of how that that might happen? Um Somebody says, um why do I have to do that? I shouldn’t have to do that, which is kind of saying, do you know who I am? Do you not realize? OK. And, and then the question, OK. So why would you not wanna do that? And do you want me to explain again why I’m suggesting doing that in relation to the purpose that you said is what you wanted to do and ex exploring that till we get to the point where we can see them coming up with that reaction. Is that because it would actually genuinely be a bad idea for them to do that thing that we’re talking about or is it because doing it would be a fantastic idea for them? But there’s a part of them that’s resisting doing that. There’s a part of them that’s going, no, that’s gonna be uncomfortable. I’m gonna feel awkward. You know, I’m gonna feel, what am I going to find out about myself?
I just feel, no, no, no, no. Or maybe something like they’ve got some sort of assumption that they don’t realize is an assumption. Like, um I had a client once who didn’t really didn’t want to do any role play ever. But he really wanted to improve his relationships with his colleagues at work and improve the way that he communicated in the bo at the board meetings. And I said, look, a role play is just a practice, you know, you’re just practicing something doesn’t mean anything, you know. And we, we dug down, he had a really strong like visceral resistance to doing that. So instead of doing the roleplay, we did sessions about that about the resistance, we explore the resistance, which in the event was much more relevant and, and helpful for him than actually doing the roleplay would have been. And the resistance came from some situations where he’d actually literally been abused, not as a child, but as an adult, um at sort of management college situations where they forced everyone to do roleplay and where they did it really badly, you know, and he was traumatized by that.
But because he was a very senior bloke, you know, he was a finance guy. You don’t talk about your feelings at work, you certainly don’t turn around and say, you know, the trainer just traumatized me. You might as well just commit professional suicide. You just don’t do that. But that had been like knotted inside him ever since for years. And we then realized that there were actually other things that had happened in his life and that still happened that he was just tolerating in people’s behavior because part of him thought he had to. And that led to some really empowering work around. Actually. No, you’re, you’re a much more mature man now than you were then. You know, a lot more, you’ve got a much greater emotional capacity. Now, you can actually, now communicate and say to people, you don’t seem to realize that when you do that that’s really undermining and unhelpful to what we’re trying to do in the business. Or to me personally, and that’s a problem, you know. So it’s very interesting. We might have got to that same place through the roleplay, but we got to it through another route.
Do you think that the, should we say that protection, the ego? Do you think that has something to do with trauma in all instances or just, uh, kind of in, in some instances? I would say not in all instances, necessarily, sometimes it’s simply because there’s a pattern that they have picked up from parental figures or equivalent parental figures or watching a movie. You know, in the old days, we used to do the example of Clint Eastwood that most people probably nowadays don’t even know who that is. But he had this amazing sort of very cool s you know, strong, silent type, you know, image about him. And there was a generations of young men who started taking that on because it looked really powerful and Clint Eastwood always won, you know, he was always the winner and he always looked damn cool doing it and the women loved him, you know, so that became like a piece of ego programming for a lot of people that they just followed, not realizing that, yeah, Clint Eastwood himself, the actual human being is a very feeling man, in fact, you know, so they’re just picking up on that one persona that’s being presented and it’s not the whole story and any single persona that we’re presenting is never the whole story for us.
And by definition, that then cuts us off from, from the juicy goodness that we have within us and, and it cuts us off from our flexibility and that’s ego because ego is about identity and persona and looking a certain way and being in control and getting people’s approval and admiration. It’s about all of those. I would say more surface things. It’s not about the true beating heart and the, you know, burning spirit and everything else within us. Almost like an inherited belief system. Exactly right. Which we all have. All our belief systems are inherited. We, we don’t we, or rather all our unconscious belief systems are inherited. Some of us have developed conscious belief systems ourselves as adults, but it’s very hard to know the difference really. In the end cos we, we, we cannot unravel all of our conditioning. We just don’t have time. And besides what a miserable life that would be to spend your whole time trying to do that. I, I tried one time when I first heard about this, I thought great.
All I’ve gotta do is clear out all my unconscious beliefs and all my unprocessed baggage. If I do that, I’ll be magnificent. Be all good. So I started trying to do it. I thought, I literally believed I could clear the whole thing. And before long I realized that it’s not possible to do that in a lifetime. And even if it was, that would be a miserable lifetime, you’d have no time to enjoy the fruits of it. Would you say you’re probably picking, picking new belief systems up as you go as well? So you’d be sort of constantly unraveling them. Is that fair? Absolutely. Right. Yeah. So, so the in fact, that kind of is a nice prompt. So the key is to um develop a capacity for tuning in to thinking for oneself. Hm, because if we can do that, we can practice that and get strong in that and live from that, then whatever belief system comes towards us, we’re not frightened of it, we’re not passive to it, we can consider it, we can reflect on it, we can research it, we can talk about it, but it’s not gonna get into us and take us over unless we choose to bring it in, in which case it’s still not taking us over because we know uh we are in fact an autonomous, we are responsible for our own responses and, and that’s a great place to be.
But in order to be in that place, we have to admit that what we don’t know is much greater than what we do know. Because if we don’t do that, we cannot really think for ourselves because we’re constantly, um, trying to bolster that sense of believing that we know all the answers. Do you have like a tool or a, um, do you have a tool or a, a way of knowing whether it’s in an inherited belief system or something that you truly believe for yourself? Um, I wouldn’t say a tool but I would say there are some things that somebody can kind of tune into to begin to explore that question. Um, one of them is what’s going on in the body. So, if, what’s going on in the body, um, is a feeling of, um, e, um, relaxation along with energy, uh, comfort. You know, that what I might call a feeling of rightness or a feeling of, yes, then it’s more probably something that you really believe in.
Now in the moment. If in the body, there’s more kind of, um, tightness, uh, f, uh, fear, um, uh, you know, all the kind of stress reactions, it’s more likely then that it’s to do with something past because those stress reactions when we experience them are that, that very, very often they’re more to do with something from the past than they are genuinely to do with something in the moment because I’m talking about you and me and a lot of the people in our circle and, and in our country and so forth, we are privileged. We are not really in danger hardly ever, you know, if someone shouts at us. So what if we have a big reaction to someone shouting at us? It’s probably a lot to do with stuff from the past which if that wasn’t kind of acting in us or operating in us, we’d be just like, mate. That’s rude. Could you not? You know what I mean? Like, ok, I, I’m just leaving now, you know.
Are you having a bad day? Do you need a cup of tea? What’s going on? We’d be more rational in response. We’d be less victim. You know, if, if, if, if the body is going into a victim mode, it’s much more likely to do with passing for us. That’s really interesting. Comes back to what you said about the, um, where that belief is because, uh, if, if you are feeling, I don’t know if this is the right word but disse, um, then it, you, you’re probably, it’s probably some sort of un unconscious response. Whereas if you’re feeling quite comfortable, like you say, this is a conscious belief that I’ve thought through, I’ve actually not thought about that. That’s a really good point. Mm But I just will add to that, you know, and when I say comfort, you might feel angry, you might feel sad, you might feel, you know, fearful, but those feelings, uh, will be vivid and present for you. They won’t be heavy and sticky and pulling you down and dragging your energy.
They will be alive and, and present in the moment. And that, that’s an experience of a liveness and that’s an experience where we know that we’re feeling something that’s relevant and we need to bear that in mind when we consider our response. So it’s, it’s data, it’s useful data rather than cloying, draining stuff, you know, hanging on our shoulders, dragging us down though. The people who are particularly, should we say stressed or feeling negative, Would you say it’s most likely the fact that they’ve got belief systems or perhaps ego or, um, you know, all that, all that negative stuff, they’ve, they’ve taken that a lot of that with them and that’s how they’re sort of operating in the world. It, that’s too much of a generalization for me to completely agree with it. I would say it’s certainly, uh, it’s for those people, it’s certainly worth them asking that question of themselves. Could that be what’s going on?
But I will also say, you know, if you put someone in a very, very bad situation for an extended period, they’re gonna suffer, you know, and that’s nothing to do with ego or that’s nothing to do with past stuff is because you are, you’ve got them in a bad situation. You know, it, it’s appropriate and relevant for us to feel bad if we’re in a bad situation. But it, how it’s more about how we respond to the experience. So there’s the nature of the experience and then, then how we respond to it. There was a fantastic story that one of my teachers told me, which I’ll probably get wrong. But um there’s AAA monastery in Tibet in this story and they are invaded by Chinese soldiers and they pull out the leader, you know, the head monk and they have him kneeling down in the courtyard and the head monkeys just completely relaxed, apparently, which really annoys the head of the Chinese troop. And he says, why can you be so calm? Do you not realize? But in a blink of an eye, I could put this sword through your head.
And the monk looks up at him and says, do you not realize that in the blink of an eye? I could have you put your sword through my head? Now, I I still get tingles when I hear or speak that story because that’s to me kind of ultimate responsibility for one’s situation and one’s experience. And that is an incredibly elevated level of consciousness for someone to be in which I don’t think I’ll ever get there, you know, and I don’t know anyone who is but and that story may not ever have happened, but who would have told it if it had happened? So that whole thing about, you know, how we respond to what’s happened to us is is really important. And do you cover that with uh in, in your coaching? Usually one way or another it comes in, I tend, because I’ve been doing the work I’m doing for a long, long time. I don’t tend to have sort of um like a list of topics that I’m gonna go through with people uh apart. You know, if it’s a specific thing, like I mentioned the Pella workshop, that’s somebody else’s modality that they developed.
They designed the workshop. I follow the structure because that’s what’s there. And I do sometimes do workshops where there’s a structure which I follow, there’s particular content. But when I’m doing the 1 to 1 work with people, it’s much more intuitive than that. It’s much more. I just bring in what is called for in the conversation as it unfolds or through questioning the client themselves will start to find these pieces of information for themselves without me having to state them. So it’s a very organic, it’s a relationship and, you know, in a great relationship, extraordinary stuff happens, doesn’t it? You know, you, you spend time with someone who you really love or a very good friend and you’re sort of changed by it in a good way. You, you, you, you’re wiser somehow, you’re a better person somehow. And it’s not necessarily because that person taught you something or told you a piece of content or material. There’s something about the dynamic between you where something changes for both of you, for the better.
And that’s a big part of the, the 1 to 1 work that I do. Have you got an example for yourself where you’ve, um, the same thing has happened and you’ve responded to it completely differently as a result of, let’s, I don’t, I’m gonna call it the monk mindset in this context. Yes. I, I would say that, um, I’ll give a personal example, my relationship with men, uh, that I’m in relationship with if you like. So when I was much younger there was a whole bunch of behaviors that a, a guy might do. If I was involved with him, that I would take really personally and get really upset about and I would take it on myself and assume that there was either something wrong with me or that this was a really um No, I would take it on, on, on me, you know, I would have a low self esteem thing based on the idea that um you know, it was supposed to be more like a fairy tale, you know, that kind of myth that a lot of people have when they’re younger, it’s supposed to be like a fairy tale.
So if he’s doing that behavior, it must mean there’s something wrong with me and it’s his fault for making me feel that way. So he’s making me feel less good about myself. That’s his fault. So I’m gonna make his life a misery. So all that would happen inside my unconsciously. I know about it now, but unconsciously and he all, he would think was she’s being really reactive and I have no idea what’s going on. I don’t understand cos he would be completely unconscious as well in relationship. Whereas now if I’m involved with somebody and they do something that I don’t like, I’m much more, my own sense of self is so much stronger now that I don’t assume there’s something wrong with me. I might say to that person look the way that you’re behaving. Is there something I’ve done or said that is actually that you don’t like, is there something that is kind of an issue for you? Because I’m really open to hearing it. Um, if there is, um, if not, then I just need to let you know that, that, that thing that you’ve done, it may just be me, but it really doesn’t work for me.
I, I don’t like it. It makes me feel like this and, um, I have this kind of reaction to it and I can even now say to somebody I’m aware that this part of the reaction is from past stuff, but this part of the reaction is in the present moment right now, in my living room with you. I i it’s easier for me to discriminate between the two. I know that it’s absolute hubris to claim that I’ve got it 100% right. So I can’t say that, but I’m certainly a lot further along the path now, which means that it’s also easier for him to do that with me as well. So it’s easier to go much deeper, which of course, creates much more uh space sense of safety and intimacy. So, but I’ve gone through a lot of very hard lessons to get to that point. You know, sometimes where I’ve been taken aside by somebody to say, Catherine, are you mad? Do you not see what you’re doing? Right. And sometimes I’ve resisted that and other times I welcomed it.
Well, I just wanna say that um that example of uh iw I would refer to it as like adult communication, like most people in their relationships, uh Significant other relationships are on this sort of, I don’t know, a hamster wheel of um arguing with each other and not really knowing that they are that unconscious behavior that you spoke of and just, just having that example out there of what, what the positive or I, I don’t wanna say it’s the right way because I’m not sure you, you would say that. But um having a good example out there of what it might look like. I think that’s just really valuable. So thank you for sharing it. It’s my pleasure. And the great thing nowadays is that there are, there are people who specialize in that work. I’ve got a very close friend who specializes in um relationship work with people, which includes the communication. It also includes the intimacy and sexuality and everything else because his purpose in life is to um increase the degree to which love is fully enacted in the world.
That’s his sort of banner for what he’s doing. And he specializes in that. And there are many, many people now doing that so people can come to a mo a more generalist person like me and include that within what we’re doing in relation to example like that, or they can go to a specialist like that and, and really dive into it. And that’s one of the great things these days, whatever it is that you want to work on, there are multiple people out there who are very, very good at it at helping people with it. Well, I wanna say that like a lot of the theme of our conversation um today has been around the unconscious versus the conscious probably because that’s a, a lot of what you specialize in to what degree do you think? Um If you could put it to a percentage to what degree are people completely unconscious in their behaviors and you know, their everyday life versus their conscious mind where they’re purposefully doing something? Have you ever thought about those numbers? Oh, yes. Uh You as a practitioner, these conversations, it’s always a good thing when you say yes to that kind of question.
It means it’s going somewhere after many, many, many conversations and much reading and research, I can honestly say I have no idea. Well, that’s the end of that one then. But the thing, the thing about it is when, when we’re really conscious in the present, it’s timeless and it’s universal and it’s infinite and it feels like it’s the whole of existence, right? And, and when we’re really unconscious, that feels like the whole of existence interminably. So it, it’s not possible to know the percentages. And in fact, the whole thing about conscious consciousness is not a bound, a bounded thing. It’s not really a nameable or quantifiable thing. It, it transcends that whole level because that’s a whole cognitive level which is, which I celebrate, but it completely transcends the cognitive level, which is why when people say to me, what’s this pow thing that you do? I basically tell them what it is and they say, well, tell and I can’t tell you anything else.
You won’t know anymore unless you try it and you won’t try it unless you’ve got an appetite for experiencing something where you have no idea what’s gonna happen. Well, um I, I’d regret if I didn’t ask you about this because it’s something that I’ve um I’ve always pursued if you like um unsuccessfully and that is, um I, I asked you earlier about like a, a true calling type thing. My, my interpretation of that is um and correct me if this is not the case, but it’s sort of like your, your passion. So what would be your passion in life? So, if if I was to say such a generalized question as how do you find your true calling or your passion? Uh, how would you answer that? I have a whole program on how to do that. Which is, it’s, it’s not my program. Say again, do my program. That’s the answer. Well, I’m saying that to say it can’t be answered in one question. So, um, it’s, um, it’s a con, it’s an enquiry.
So it’s the first thing that a person does is they, they make a decision that they want to find out what their calling is. And um human will is so powerful that that decision is the prime lever for the result of finding what they’re calling is. Some people only have to make that decision and then keep looking and then they find it. In fact, a lot of people that happens and it’s just a question of how long it takes to do it if someone’s in a frame of mind, which says, oh, I wanna know my calling is, but I don’t know what it is and nobody will tell me and I don’t know, it’s not fair. I can’t find out what my call that doesn’t, that’s not gonna work because they haven’t decided they haven’t committed to finding what it is. So that’s the first thing to do. Now, the second thing to do is to go into what I call a state of inquiry where the, the person surrenders to a strategy of finding out it’s a strategy of receptivity combined with curiosity and then they go through whatever experiences they need to go through to find what is true for them, which could include meditation.
It could, could include discussion, it could include conscious dance, it could include uh painting, it could include all, all kinds of things different for every person of what’s gonna really unlock it for them. You know, I think most people find that they have um if they look back over their life, most people can remember points in their life where they suddenly had an incredibly powerful life changing insight. And a lot of people have experienced that many times if someone looks at at that in their life and ask themselves what was going on when that happened? Where was I, what was I doing? Who was I with? Remember as much as possible about that situation where the inside occurred that gives somebody a clue as to their own personal key or keys for unlocking their inner truce. So that’s very different for everybody. So when I’m, I’m helping someone do that, part of my job is to help them to do that and then walk alongside them as they activate that to start finding information and then testing it and finding more and testing it and testing it and finding more and testing it.
And then there comes a point when somebody just knows that they found it because as I mentioned before. It, it, there’s that feeling of rightness all through the body. A friend of mine describes it as all your planets are in alignment. There’s a nice way of putting it. It doesn’t really mean anything but it’s a nice way of putting it. Or all your ducks are in a row. There’s just that feeling of everything feels, oh my God. This is it for me. So trusting that and not accepting something as a calling. If you don’t have that experience is really important. I think that’s fascinating and uh an amazing answer. And uh as you were explaining it, I was thinking about how it applies to me and I think you have helped me. So I appreciate it. Well, you’ve helped me as well. Thank you, cos I, I’m about to make a video about that particular program and um you’ve helped me clarify my thinking about what I’m gonna say. Well, it was a great answer. So you’ve uh you already know you’re going in strong. Um I appreciate your answers today.
Is there anything that you would like to close with at all? Yeah, ju just to really um encourage everybody to trust the human superpower of thinking for ourselves. And remember that’s always an option and it’s always a really good idea in my opinion. 100% agree. And um for those people who want to follow you or get in touch with you, where do they go? Uh They go to Beings Space dot World. And on there, they’ll find my podcast. If they just click podcast on the top menu, they’ll find that uh all the episodes are there, they’ll find all my mentoring programs, workshops, treatments, ebooks, which are downloadable for free on a variety of topics that I find interesting. Um And a bit more about my whole philosophy around consciousness which, you know, even if someone just took some of the content from that website and just stuck it on the wall and just reflected on it every day for a month, they would experience a fundamental shift.
And if they listen to some of my podcast episodes as well, they would experience even more of a shift. Well, um thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and for being a great podcast guest today. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.